The Christian music world, Madonna, and speaking in tongues. Just some of the topics touched on when Tony Cummings went to talk to CLIFF RICHARD.

"It depends on what church I'm at. I quite like some of the contemporary stuff. But I don't like repeating the same chorus 10 times. I find it inspiring for two times round.

After that I'm thinking 'what am I doing', 'why am I singing this again?' That's the danger. You get a pretty chorus and everyone gets the mood of it. But after awhile repeating it, it doesn't feel right to me. Again it's all subjective. It's just the way we are as individuals. Obviously a lot of people enjoy worshipping that way, it's not for me to change it. It's just personally I find it loses something once I've sung a chorus twice. I still find it very hard to beat a hymn - like 'When I Survey The Wondrous Cross' Some of those old fantastic hymns with wonderful lyrics - it's going to take a lot in my book to beat those. Like those famous carols. 'The First Noel', 'O Come All Ye Faithful', 'It Came Upon A Midnight Clear', they will never ever be replaced."

What's your current local church involvement? Do you still go to Gerald Coates' Cobham Fellowship?

"I don't feel like a member of any church at the moment but they're (Cobham) my closest. There's a whole group of them there who support me. There's a prayer group at Cobham of 40, with their wives and they support me and they've given permission that whenever I write a book I can give their address. They've done fantastic work. I've had letters from people in prison who've written to that address. They've been helped, in some cases there's been conversion, in some cases on-going counselling. Yes, I have this connection with them."

Have you been through an experience that you would call the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

"Again we start using terminology like that, everybody thinks you've got to jump up and spout tongues. I've had dealings with the Holy Spirit. For me it's far more intricate than gifts. For me when I read the Bible it says of all the gifts the Spirit gives the greatest is love. But you can over-simplify and say if I feel love for somebody that's a sign of the Spirit. I think it is. I happen to pray in tongues but only for myself. When I prayed in tongues it didn't mean it was the first time I was visited by the Holy Spirit. That's definitely not true. The first time I was ever conscious of a power of the Holy Spirit was when I'd just become a Christian and I started to witness. I went to colleges and things and one of the meetings was disrupted by the Communist movement - it was at the Enfield School of Technology. It was chaotic. In the middle of talking and trying to answer these wild questions - there were people being vocally violent. I prayed and said 'God, you have to get me out of this, this is ridiculous' And I felt a calm. I finished the meeting and when it was over the guy that ran it said 'that's the best one we've ever had'. I said 'that's the best one?' He said 'oh yeah, normally they break up the room. We have not yet had a meeting religious or other where they haven't smashed the furniture and broken the windows.' That experience of calm, that's the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is supposed to live within us, he's supposed to be with us all the time. Of course we don't always feel His presence. Part of the learning of a Christian is learning to recognize when the Holy Spirit is actively involved. I recognized his presence in my life then, long before I ever babbled in tongues in my own prayer time. So I can say "yes, I'm baptized in all sorts of ways, by water and the Spirit"

Is it impossible for you to become a regular member of a church?

"It's not impossible. It just hasn't worked out as well as I'd hoped. I've lived in three or four different areas over the years. Each time I think maybe this'll be the place. It's what other people make of you. It's not their fault either. It's the animal that I am, and the animal that my industry is. It creates figures on television. It creates successful, famous people. And because we're human if someone famous goes by - I do this - you say 'did you see who that was? You've just seen them on television!' You can't help it. That's the problem. When, as a showbiz entity, you go to a church and want to be accepted as everyone else they may accept you but you can never ever be as anyone else. I've discovered that over the years. I really thought I could be the same. But I can't be. I usually find myself surrounded by people, not always the people I want to meet. They're not my age; we don't share the same interests. I've been very philosophical I go to church when I can and when I want. But I have a great deal of Christian fellowship, all my friends are Christians, the people I go on holiday with. So I have a lot of fellowship. I read my Bible regularly, I pray regularly. I've got this group that pray for me; we get together occasionally. So, whereas you'd think I would've shrivelled as a Christian, I haven't at all. I'm more vocal now as a Christian than I've ever been. I wouldn't have dared say things about Madonna 10 years ago! I feel stronger as a Christian. It's not a put down of Madonna the person, I don't know her, it's the persona that I see on the screen that I don't like. If I lose fans to say something I know is right, then I must say it and bear the consequences."